Comment by Tim F

10/25/2005 @ 10:04 am

But Steve, the PS3 (and PS2) being difficult to program for causes some great games to not come out on it (like Oddworld: Stranger’s Wrath). I’ll also note, Mr. HatesGates, that part of the ease of developing for Xbox 360 comes from using an Apple G5 as their development kit.

Also, you’re contradicting yourself. You say:

“Everyone knows that the key to a great game isn’t the number of polygons per second the screen displays, the speed of the console processor, or how much performance a developer can eek out of the system.”

and then badmouth John Carmack when he is essentially saying the exact same thing:

“When you look at these development cycles that stretch over years and years, being 20% easier to develop on is much more important than being 20% more powerful.”

A console that puts a priority on making things easier for developers is going to have more games developed for it than a console whose priority is specs and those developers will be able to focus more on the game instead of the logistics of translating it to the console.

As for the overhype, just wait until PS3 and Revolution come out and then we can talk about hype and cost. The prices you’ve quoted are bundle prices that include 2 - 3 games and apparantly aren’t that stupid as your link to Wal-Mart shows. They’ve sold out of their launch bundles already…

The price doesn’t surprise me that much, though $60 a game is pretty steep. That said, I thought $30 a game was steep for SNES, and $50 was steep for Xbox. I also fully expect PS3 games to be just as expensive.

“According to an article published in the May 17th edition of Japan’s Mainichi Shimbun, the PlayStation 3 could be one of the most expensive mass-market videogame consoles ever created. Officials from Sony apparently told the newspaper that PlayStation 3s would sell in Japan for “less than 50,000 yen each.” That translates to about $465 US dollars.” - IGN.com

Add 2 - 3 games and an additional wireless controller to that and you’ve got the same price as one of those 360 bundles.

Maybe in the future you should count to ten before you post about Microsoft.

Comment by Steve D

10/25/2005 @ 11:00 am

Dear Tim,

You say that:

“A console that puts a priority on making things easier for developers is going to have more games developed for it than a console whose priority is specs and those developers will be able to focus more on the game instead of the logistics of translating it to the console.”.

However, that *still* doesn’t mean that console is going to have more great games. And that’s exactly my point; the fact that one console may or may not be easier to develop for, that one console is faster than another does not matter. It is just hype.

“As for the overhype, just wait until PS3 and Revolution come out and then we can talk about hype and cost.”

There will probably be overhype when those consoles come out too. But that’s in the future; I’m talking about what’s going on right now. It certainly seems that the XBox 360 is being hyped more than any other console before—especially since the competition is fierce, the XBox is the first out of the gate, and Microsoft is a marketing machine.

“The prices you’ve quoted are bundle prices that include 2 - 3 games and apparantly aren’t that stupid as your link to Wal-Mart shows.”

I don’t want a bundle, though; I honestly don’t think the base price for a console should be almost $600! That really screws people out of their hard-earned cash by forcing them to buy things in the bundle that they don’t necessarily want. It cuts down on choices for the consumer. And that is unfortunate—I call it stupid. Also, if you take a look at the prices in the GameStop link, they’re really off the wall.

“The price doesn’t surprise me that much, though $60 a game is pretty steep. That said, I thought $30 a game was steep for SNES, and $50 was steep for Xbox. I also fully expect PS3 games to be just as expensive.”

Yes, I agree $60 a game is steep. We’ll see what the prices of PS3 games look like. I’ve heard $50, but it’s probably too early to tell. It also makes me wonder where Nintendo will be pricing their games.

“According to an article published in the May 17th edition of Japan’s Mainichi Shimbun, the PlayStation 3 could be one of the most expensive mass-market videogame consoles ever created.”

So you’re quoting a five-month-old article on a console that’s about six months away from being released. I think we can only speculate about what the actual prices will be. But if that article is correct and the console is priced at or higher than we’ve seen these XBox 360 bundles, then that will just as or even more ridiculous.

Maybe in the future you should count to ten before you post about Microsoft.

If the PS3 were coming out now instead of the XBox 360, and the hype were at the level we’re seeing now, I’d be saying the same thing about Sony. In fact, that’s one of the reasons I didn’t get into the PS2 right away; the hype was too much when the console came out. And I felt the hype was undeserved at the time.

Comment by Dan M

10/25/2005 @ 11:10 am

I’d also like to add a couple of points regarding the pricing and the bundles. For starters, every console since the PS2 has launched with these pre-order bundles and it has absolutely nothing to do with the system or the manufacturer.

What you’re decrying is the practice of the retailers, and the retailers alone. It is also a basic tenet of capitalism and economics…supply and demand. Personally, I find it neither distasteful nor unfair. They’re ensuring that they will move their products. There is no profit margin on the systems and a very slim one on the games. They don’t want you to get the system from them at no profit and turn around and buy your games and accessories from someone else.

First of all, for the most part, these bundles will save you money if it’s already your intention to pick up the included accessories. Those that do not save you any money, such as those from Walmart, at least give you your choice of included games as opposed to preset titles. If the price is what you’re clamoring about, you do know that the unit doesn’t come with any games, right? Right off the bat in order to enjoy it you’re going to drop another $50 for a game and possibly another $40-50 on a second controller. Now we’re up to $500 (assuming you had any sense and got the Premium as opposed to the useless Core bundle).

Secondly, this helps weed out the pack significantly at launch. I work. I hold down a job and have resposibilities. I have no intention of trying to camp out all night until a store opens to ensure that I get one on launch day. If I want to be the first one on the block to have one, it costs a little extra to ensure that. If I don’t want to pay a premium or buy accessories I’m not sure I want, I can wait a few weeks. This is also not to say that stores won’t have them available to walk in and buy. The PSP pre-orders were all sold as bundles just like this, but the demand was not as great as anticipated, and you had no problem walking right in on day one and picking one up off the shelf.

Finally, I have no sympathy for the “uninformed gamer”. We live in the age of the inter-web. If someone has the cake to spare on a Core Xbox360 presumably they first have a computer with an internet connection or knows someone who does. Anyone who gets all of their info from either the manufacturer’s site or a retailer’s site without looking for something a little bit more independent and impartial is a chump who will always be uninformed, because they don’t use common sense. This is not some obscure game, book, or movie that nobody has ever heard of or written about…this is a major consumer product launch. If you can’t find your way to an objective article on that, then you’re just not looking. Now, if you want to talk about parents or grandparents being suckered in by hucksterism on the part of unscrupulous retailers come holiday time, then shame on both of them…the relatives and the retailers. Again, I have no sympathy for anyone who drops $300-400 without doing any kind of research. Ditto for those parents who would buy their child a game or game system without knwoing anything about the content. With all the coverage (mostly negative) the industry has gotten in the major media outlets recently, there is no excuse for professing ignorance. Live with your decisions and accept responsibility for your actions.

Comment by Jeff S

10/25/2005 @ 11:30 am

Allow me to jump into the fire.

Bundles: I’m with Tim and Dan on this one. If you have a beef with the $700 “core” system price, take that up with Wal-Mart. The Xbox 360 prices are $299 for the core game system and $399 for the system with accessories. Wal-Mart, Amazon, and EB Games have all made these $700-$2000 bundles available for the wealthy and the financially irresponsible.

As for the Xbox 360 name, I can’t really fault them for that. Marketing, no matter who it’s coming from, is typically corny bullshit that serves only one purpose. If it encourages someone buy their product, it has succeeded.

On Carmack: First of all, it IS infinitely easier for him and other Windows game developers to produce games for the Xbox 360. Just about any programmer who is well versed in DirectX can make an easy transition to Xbox 360. This is a good thing because it enables smaller developers, hopefully with non-traditional design ideas, to get in the game. Note: The G5 development consoles are used for little more than the processor inside. It was just a lucky coincidence for Microsoft that Apple used the same processors as their game console. The programming is still DirectX/Windows-centric. The PS3, on the other hand, is a world of its own. In order to create games for PS3, a developer must have a programming team specifically trained to program for the PS3’s hardware. Sony made one good move with the PS3 in that the graphics are based on OpenGL, but that’s only one piece of the puzzle. In short, PS3 development doesn’t come cheap or easy. And don’t get the idea that Carmack is in love with Microsoft either. He’s talked shit on many occasions about how Apple, Microsoft and Sony all need to clean up their act when it comes to game development. And they all listen very closely to what he has to say. Considering the number and the quality of contributions Carmack has made to the game programming world, I tend to side with him.

Hey and about Stranger’s Wrath; all the Oddworld games were slated to be released on PS2 before Microsoft bought up the Oddworld franchise. Microsoft managed to turn Munch’s Oddysee from its initial design of a lush graphical adventure into a glorified PacMan clone. We should consider ourselves fortunate that Stranger’s Wrath came out as well as it did.

On that note, add this to my Christmas list - http://www.ballisticpublishing.com/books/oddworld/

Hype sells products so you can’t blame Microsoft for that. Above all, remember that they are not in this for your personal entertainment. They are in this to make money. If you want to get upset about something, make it the lackluster batch of sequels slated to be the Xbox 360’s first releases. I have yet to see any Xbox 360 gameplay that couldn’t be achieved on the original Xbox’s hardware.

And let me add, “Smooch ma nuts”.

Comment by A J

10/25/2005 @ 11:59 am

attention: Testicles.

That is all.

Comment by Tim F

10/25/2005 @ 12:15 pm

In 2000, Lorne Lanning the creator of Oddworld announced he was switching development from the PS2 to the Xbox specifically stating the main reason for the change was shortcomings of the PS2 hardware and the difficult task of programming for it.

EA initially planned on putting it out on PS2.

“When we signed on with EA they were confident that they could, with the help of some other developers, convert Stranger to the PS2. If they could achieve this, we would be fully supportive of it. In the end, they found it would take longer and cost more than they had anticipated…” - Lanning

Steve - if your responses to my comments are truly the opinions you intended to present in your original post, than you were unsuccessful. Given your history of bashing anything Microsoft and phalating anything Mac, you need to be more careful if you wish to make an unbiased, general comment on over-hyping rather than your usual diatribe.

For the record, I’m probably buying a PS3 instead of the 360. We’ll see. I might just by the 360 to spite Steve…

I agree with Jeff as I also have yet to see any 360 games (aside from maybe the new Elder Scrolls) that look that amazing. For me to get excited I need to see something that looks as good or as cool as Half Life 2 and nothing has done that yet.

The 360 name is pretty smart marketing. Calling it Xbox 2 would’ve been a really bad idea. Also, Nintendo’s decision to not use the numbering system asserts their decision to separate themselves from Sony and M$.

Comment by Steve D

10/25/2005 @ 12:22 pm

I’d argue that the base prices from Microsoft are also pretty bad—and that has everything to do with Microsoft and nothing to do with the retailer. Have a look at Microsoft’s XBox 360 price list.. The base system costs $300 but includes hardly any useful accessories, in particular the hard drive which you need to play old XBox games and probably some new ones, too. You’d have to spend an extra $100 on the 20GB (yes, 20GB) hard drive to buy it separately. A total ripoff.

The $400 system includes a ton of stuff, including the $100 hard drive that the core system didn’t come with. But it also includes stuff you don’t necessarily need out of the box, including the headset, HD cable, and XBox live membership.

So you’re stuck having to shell out $400 to get the console with a bunch of stuff you may not want right away. Can you say “bundle”? I knew you could.

P.S. nice one A J.

Comment by Steve D

10/25/2005 @ 12:54 pm

Steve - if your responses to my comments are truly the opinions you intended to present in your original post, than you were unsuccessful. Given your history of bashing anything Microsoft and phalating anything Mac, you need to be more careful if you wish to make an unbiased, general comment on over-hyping rather than your usual diatribe.

My article stands as-is.

Apple products have nothing to do with this article, I think you’re reading way too much into what I’m writing. The article was certainly not meant to be a general comment on overhyping, it’s specifically talking about the Xbox 360. You’d think that would be obivous, but I guess not.

The Xbox 360 may be a great console, who knows? My point is just that the console is getting a ton of hype right now. Some might say this hype is undeserved.

I apologize if you don’t like or don’t understand my articles, Tim.

For the record, I’m probably buying a PS3 instead of the 360. We’ll see. I might just by the 360 to spite Steve…

I’m also on the fence. It’s hard to tell what these consoles and games are going to be like before they come out. I’m trying not to get caught up in the marketing, but it’s hard not to.

If you want to shell out a few hundred bucks just to spite me, Tim, go ahead. I might just surprise you and pick up an Xbox 360 for myself—but I’d only do it to play the games.

Comment by Dan M

10/25/2005 @ 1:13 pm

I think you’re looking at it backwards Steve. The base system is not the Core system. The base system is the Premium. Consider that one to be the normal Xbox360. That is the one that should be considered de facto. The Core system is a stripped down Lite version that brings the price below $400. Not all the way to $299, mind you, since you’ll still need a memory card at the very least in order to save games, but this is no different than the PS2, which still to this day sells in a package that does not have the means to save your games on its own.

I would estimate that the first price drop the unit will see will be a $350 package that forgoes the extras such as remote, headset, and hi-def cables, but will include the hard drive and a wired controller. This will be the true “essential” system and it will fall between the bare minimum they can afford to let the unit go for and the premium price they will enjoy at launch. As soon as it’s feasible for them to do so, they will drop the Core package altogether and the hard drive will become a standard base factor at the $299 price point.

I think the fundamental problem with your argument, Steve, is the recurrence of the words “right away”. Nobody is saying you have to get one “right away”. Nobody is saying you have to get a game for it “right away”. If you have no game “right away”, then you have no need for a hard drive or memory card “right away”. Presumably, however, if and when you do decide to pick up an Xbox360, these are things that you will find very useful. The hard drive alone makes up for the difference in price between the Core and Premium package. Everything else included should be considered a freebie. Can you fault a company for including wireless control out-of-the-box, a Live membership, headset and media remote free of charge with the purchase of the system? I really don’t think we’ve seen anything like this in the US since the launch of the NES with light gun and retarded robot, since Sony refused to launch a standalone version of the PSP in conjunction w/ the “Value Pack” in the US and give consumers the option.

Don’t get it right away. Plenty of others will. I will not be one of them, but that doesn’t mean that I think that they’re ripping everyone off. Unless it comes as a welcome Christmas or birthday gift, $400 is just more than I will pay for a console when I have a plethora of untouched Xbox titles to go through and a gigaplethora of PC titles backlogged. By the time I’m ready to pay for Xbox360, it will be in my price range and it will have a number of quality must-buy titles.

Comment by Jeff S

10/25/2005 @ 1:23 pm

Let’s end this petty squabble. If you see something you want to play, buy it. If you don’t, spend your money elsewhere. All this energy should be put into organizing our next Ghost Recon outing.

Comment by Chris L

10/25/2005 @ 2:04 pm

Take your Ghost Recon and suck it, mouth breather. Ghost Recon outings are overhyped. I mean, look at the price: to have a Ghost Recon outing with anyone good you have to get Ghost Recon AND Island Thunder plus all of the patches and fan mods. Talk about forcing a consumer into the cost of a bundle.

You suck. And so do AJ’s testicles.

Comment by Steve D

10/25/2005 @ 2:26 pm

Ah, perhaps not with Island Thunder, but definitely one could gripe about costly expansion packs that you need in order to play a lot of good campaigns online (such as Neverwinter Nights). That sounds like the start of another article…

Comment by Dan M

10/25/2005 @ 2:42 pm

You know what really grinds my gears?…..

Comment by Chris L

10/25/2005 @ 3:39 pm

Tell me, Dan, what really grinds your gears?

Comment by Dan M

10/25/2005 @ 3:48 pm

Where in the bible does it say that a man can’t fire off some knuckle-children in the privacy of his own neighbor’s living room while his neighbor’s at work because I don’t have a DVD player? Well, I don’t know where it says it because the Bible was way too long to read.

You know what else really grinds my gears? This Lindsay Lohan. Lindsay Lohan with all those little outfits, jumping around there on stage, half-naked with your little outfits. Ya know? You’re a… You’re out there jumping around and I’m just sitting here with my beer. So, what am I supposed to do? What you want? You know, are we gonna go out? Is that what you’re trying to - why why are you leaping around there, throwing those things all up in my, over there in my face? What do you want, Lindsay? Tell me what you want? Well, I’ll tell you what you want, you want nothing. You want nothing. All right? Because we all know that no woman anywhere wants to have sex with anyone, and to titillate us with any thoughts otherwise is - is just bogus.

Comment by Chris L

10/25/2005 @ 5:57 pm

This thread has taken a turn for the bizarre, apparently due to Lindsey Lohan. Who is also overhyped, ironically enough.

Comment by A J

10/25/2005 @ 10:12 pm

And finally to cap this thread:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/10/25/study_ranks_delaware_no_1_for_work_environment_louisiana_last/